"Celtic Workshop #9 - The use of Herbs and Potions"

The role of herbs in healing, Magick, ceremonies and rituals as well as in mind alteration were presented and discussed in detail. The effects of the most popular Druidic herbs and potions were detailed and discussed. Some reformatting was done on the transcript for clarity's sake as well. A final note!!!! Please exercise caution around most of these herbs!! Some of them are considered to be POISONS! The effects of some of the others are very powerful in areas of "mind alteration". The author of one of the texts, used as a reference, presents his suggested methods for how the Druids used these herbs (they are ONLY used in a greatly dilluted state!). Once again I urge caution and good judgement before proceeding. All in all, the Workshop participants evidenced a very thorough respect and understanding of the use and effects of these herbs.

Entering Workshop/Seminar 1 room...

Freepowder after 20+ years, I've gotten used to it <G>
O'Dubhain Hi all!
Freepowder OD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rhianna Hi Everyone. This is Rhianna. This is the first time
I've ever done a conference like
Rhianna this, so I'm not really sure how this works.
Freepowder <saved by the OD!>
nan howdy OD
Trailstalker Evening ya'll.
nan hi Rhianna
nan hi TS
O'Dubhain Hi Rhianna!
Freepowder Hi TS, R
Rhianna Hi nan!
O'Dubhain Hi Nan!
O'Dubhain use
O'Dubhain whoops!
Freepowder brb, will announce in 9
O'Dubhain Hi TS!!
Trailstalker 'ello luv.
Freepowder back
O'Dubhain Ok I'll go over the format
O'Dubhain for Rhianna's benefit
O'Dubhain rehi's FP
O'Dubhain Someone presents information
O'Dubhain and anyone with a question raises their hand
O'Dubhain like this: "?"
O'Dubhain just type a ?
O'Dubhain or a "!" if you want to add a comment
O'Dubhain I'll call on everyone in series
O'Dubhain first come first serve
O'Dubhain We'll try to have back and forth discussion as much
as possible.
O'Dubhain Tonight is brief so I expect a lot of questions!<G>
nan lol
O'Dubhain everyone ready?
Trailstalker go for it
O'Dubhain well...
nan ready
cherokee yes
Norine Hello all
nan welcome norine, we're just getting started
O'Dubhain since we are talking about drugs and herbs...
O'Dubhain I think all of you are well informed!
Norine Sorry I'm late!
O'Dubhain it's ok ....just starting
Freepowder <---has herb book at hand, written late '60s too!
Rhianna Oh. I'm ready too. I was having trouble reading the
screen, but I've got it now.
Rhianna Thanks!
cherokee noooo od none of us knows anything about drugs!
O'Dubhain here we go!!!!<G>

O'Dubhain "Druidic Use of Herbs"

We must look at many sources to determine how
the Druids used drugs and herbs. Some of these
sources are historical (such as the Greek and
Roman historians). Other sources are the traditions
of the Bards and Seanchai. Still others are the folk
remedies and fables of the major Celtic areas of
the world (Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Britain).
We can also look to information that comes from
the inspired "Awen" of others (such as Llewellyn
Sion of Glamorgan and Douglas Monroe).
Archaelogical evidence is also being found (the
bodies of sacrificial or other burial victims have
been recently discovered). Each of these types of
sources will be matched against the others
(where possible) to give us the best possible
idea of how Druids worked with drugs and herbs.

O'Dubhain A quote from one the ancients, Pliny, a Roman,
referring to the Druid veneration of mistletoe:

" Seldom was the Mistletoe found growing
upon the Oak, but on such occasion,
the Druids gathered it with due religious
ceremony, (if possible on the 6th day of
the new Moon-when the influence of the
orb was waxing, and said to be at its height.
Following an elaborate banquet, a whiteclad
priest cut the plant from the oak tree with a
golden sickle, while another Druid held out a
white cloak for its reception. They believed that
the Mistletoe, immersed in water within a
cauldron, would impart fecundity to barren
animals, and that it is the antidote for all
poisons - its name meaning 'all healing.'"

O'Dubhain I recommend acquiring the following books to aid in
your tree and herbal work:

Scott Cunningham's "Encyclopedia of Magickal Herbs".
Llewellyn Publications. ISBN 0-87542-122-9.

Medicinal and Other Uses of North American Plants
by Charlotte Erichsen-Brown. Dover Publications,
ISBN 0-486-25951-X.

Peterson's Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants by
Lee Allen Peterson, Ho0ughton Mifflin Co.,
ISBN 0-395-31870-X.

The Book of Forrest and Thicket by John Eastman,
Stackpole Books, ISBN 0-8117-3046-8.

Trees for Healing by Pamela Louise Chase and
Jonathan Pawlik, Newcastle Publishing, ISBN
0-87877-157-3.

nan ?
Freepowder !

O'Dubhain Many of the herbs can be had from your local health

food store as well or can be ordered from the
New Forest Gardens,
P.O. Box 491,
Westfield,NY 14787.
(This is Run by Douglas Monroe I believe.)
O'Dubhain Ok nan is first then FFreepowder
O'Dubhain Nan ga
nan I thought Mistletoe was posionous......ga
O'Dubhain Yep!
O'Dubhain It's considered poisonous
as are several herbs we'll be discussing tonight
I think that this is a good place to make very LARGE
note of this fact. I don't recommend taking most
of these concotions and using them without
using a lot of caution.
If it's poisonous I try to indicate that.
The ancients were not as cautious as we are
about what they took....especially in small doses.
O'Dubhain ga nan
nan if it's poisionous how can it be all healing? ga
O'Dubhain Some things are poisons and yet they are used today
O'Dubhain to effect cures in man.
O'Dubhain This depends on the dosage. I believe that
the Druids used very dilluted forms of this herb.
I was once on a "blood thinner"...it turned out
to be the same thing I used to poison my rats!!
Cuminin! a drug and a poison,
but the Doctors monitored me very closely while
I was using it.
I figure that the Druids thought this herb (Mistletoe)
could do some good. I'll list the treatments next.
Rhianna !
O'Dubhain more questions nan? ga
nan nope
Freepowder !
O'Dubhain OK FP ga!
Freepowder there are 2 varietys of Mistletoe....
Freepowder american and european, the effects of them are almost
opposite...
Freepowder european lowers BP, american raises....
Freepowder the *berries* of either are deadly poisonous. GA
O'Dubhain great info!! FP!
O'Dubhain Rhianna is next ga
cherokee !
Rhianna Re: nan's question: Foxglove is another example -
Digitalis (which comes from (foxglove) is a poison,
yet it's used for treating heart patients.
Freepowder ?
O'Dubhain excellent comment! I knew I was in the right crowd!<G>
O'Dubhain ok next is Cherokee ga
cherokee my gt grandma used mistle toe to bring prople out of
fevers and unconsciousness.
cherokee aspirin bark is poisonous too.
Trailstalker ?
cherokee its all in how you prepare it
O'Dubhain Do you remember how she prepared it?
O'Dubhain remember to type ga if you're done! ga
cherokee peyote has strychnine in it so, you have to remove that
first
cherokee i don't remember all the detalis i just recently got
her journals so i'm trying to learn it
cherokee ga
O'Dubhain thanks!! we'll look forward to getting more info from
O'Dubhain you on the Native American herbs in the future.
O'Dubhain ok...I think Desmodia may have had a ?
O'Dubhain ga
Desmodia no...thanks anyway ga
O'Dubhain ok next up is FP again ga
Freepowder are you going to cover what each was used for? GA
O'Dubhain Yes, I'm going to briefly list the uses
O'Dubhain but I recommend reading a lot before trying any.
O'Dubhain Also we have several files here in our library
O'Dubhain on herbs as well as in other CIS sections.
O'Dubhain trailstalker's next ga
Norine ?
Desmodia ?
Trailstalker I was going to ask cherokee if the misletoe was used
as a smudge or an inhalant?
O'Dubhain ok
O'Dubhain cherokee? ga
cherokee both, smudge on chest and inhalant , also rubbed on
inside of lips ,
cherokee had a stimulant effect like smelling salts ga
O'Dubhain TS more? ga
Trailstalker nope. ga
O'Dubhain ok
O'Dubhain the next up is Norine then Desmodia
O'Dubhain ga Norine
Norine O'Dubhain, you mentioned taking a medication
Norine CUMININ, as a blood thinner. I've heard of
Norine COUMADIN, an anticoagulant. Same? Different? GA
O'Dubhain yes!
O'Dubhain My lousy spelling!!
O'Dubhain That's the stuff!
O'Dubhain was trying to spell off the top of my head!
Norine Okay, thanks! GA
O'Dubhain Thanks!
O'Dubhain ga Desmodia!
Norine No problem! GA
Desmodia Is this being saved for a library? I want to get it
but I am going to have to go.ga
O'Dubhain Yes it is!
O'Dubhain I hope by several folks here so we don't lose any of it!<G>
Desmodia thanx....<slipping out> Goodnight, all ga
O'Dubhain night Des!
Norine Goodnight! night Des!
O'Dubhain now to proceed
cherokee bye!
Freepowder Sla'n leat! D
Rivquah night Des
nan bye des (I'm saving it too <g>)
Freepowder <---saving

O'Dubhain "The 16 Leeches of Diancecht"

Diancecht was the physician of the Tuatha de Dannan.
He healed their wounded during and after their Battles
with the Fomorai and the Firborgs. He is the God of
Herbs and Medicines.

The following list contains herbs listed in "the 21
Lessons of Merlin" and contains their correspondences
to the four elements as well as their applications.
How to prepare a suitable "store" of these medicines
is also given. The recommended dossages are also given.

Note: Some of these herbs can be considered "POISONS"!
I heartily recommend using extreme caution with them. I
have attempted to identify those that may be considered
harmful. Please proceed at your own risk. I must say
that generally Monroe stays away fron poisonous herbs
in topical or internal medicines. He does use some very
dangerous substances in some of his recommended
incenses.
a long list will follow
please bear with me!<G>

O'Dubhain "The 16 Leeches of Diancecht"


Spirit
Mistletoe Uchelwydd or All-Heal
vertigo, dizziness, headaches, heart/problems/
palpitations, high blood pressure,
arteriosclerosis, nervine.

Preparation
one ounce of dried herb, in a jar with twice
it's volume of vodka. Leave for two weeks,
strain and place in labeled dropper bottles.
Dosages
1 drop for every 10 pounds of body weight
every 3 hours.

O'Dubhain one second please

<<<Here I had problems with the text I was uploading!(G)>>>

<<<"The 16 Leeches of Diancecht"

<<<Diancecht was the physician of the Tuatha de Dannan.
<<<He healed their wounded during and after their Battles

O'Dubhain another long second!
Freepowder it's pleasant to see you choke once in a while O'D <G>
O'Dubhain hahahaha!
O'Dubhain Ah!! the dangers of business dinners on class day!<G>

O'Dubhain Earth
Phu (Valerian)
sedative, cramps, pain, coughs.

Hoodwort (Skullcap)
nerves, fevers, coolant

Nerve Root(Lady Slipper)
nervine, indigestion, headache

Absinthe(Wormwood)
digestion, liver/gall bladder, worms,
topically for: insect bites,sprains,
rheumatism, bruises.
Air
Golden Pipes(Chamomile family)
stomach aches/digestion/gas, calamative vs
insomnia in children, eye wash and open sores,
kidneys.

Holigold (Calendula)
Marigold. topical application for sores, burns,
bleeding hemorrhoids & wounds, in oil for ear
aches, vaginal infections.

Eerie (Yarrow)
internal bleeding (especially lungs), gas,
diarrhea, fevers(measles, colds,flus).
also antiseptic.

Brittanica (Vervain)
colds, flus, coughs, upper respiratory
inflammations, stomatic, insomnia, pneumonia,
asthma.

Water
Catwort (Catnip/Catmint)
digestion/stomach ache or cramps, calmative,
fevers, headaches, bronchititis & diarrhea.

Beerflower (Hops)
Sleep aid, liver/digestive/gas/cramps.
externally for: boils tumors swellings & skin
inflammations, refrigerant.

Withe (Black Willow)
pain, fevers, arthritis, kidney/bladder troubles,
antiseptic, gargle, tonsilitis, refrigerant.

Coneflower (Echinacea)
antibiotic (immune system stimulant), tooth/body
abscesses, lymph node swellings, digestive aid.

O'Dubhain Fire
Goldenruthe (goldenseal)
Antibiotic, general purpose internal/external,
eye-wash, female infections, sores, skin
conditions, colds/viruses/infections

Amber (St. John's Wort)
nerves, bed-wetting, liver tonic, insomnia,
mix with olive oil: use externally for skin
conditions, tumors, wounds, ulcers, burns,
swollen glands, bruises and muscle pains.

Sacred Bark (Buckthorne)
Constipation/laxative, digestive stimulant, gas,
liver, gall bladder/ stones.

Quercus (White Oak)
internal bleeding, vaginal infections, antiseptic
for all wounds/bites/skin conditions, poison
ivy/oak, gum problems, lymph node swellings,
varicose veins.

O'Dubhain To activate these drugs, the Druids would includes
O'Dubhain a small amount of Mistletoe preparation to each before
O'Dubhain use. Since it was considered "all heal".

O'Dubhain "Draughts of Inspiration" (Only one is given)

These drinks are thought to instill the correct state of
mind required for "Awen". According to Monroe, nine exist
in total, though only one is given in his book. Perhaps
we can discover the others? I suggest that the other
tree barks that were used are from the red chestnut, white
chestnut, Elm, Beech, Larch, Oak and Fir trees. I would
guess these based upon Hints contained in "Practical
Celtic Magick" by Murry Hope. I also would guess that
ivy was used in a draught based upon information from
Scott Cunningham's "Encyclopedia of Magickal Herbs".

5 tablespoons of spring water
1 pinch Evening Primrose Flowers
1 pinch Black Willow Bark
1 pinch Thyme

sit in Glass bottle (closed in the Sun) for
3 days

strain/ add 1 tsp apple cider vinegar

before use add 1 tsp chlorophyll (alfalfa)

take 3 drops subligually prior to Magickal
Workings with trees/plants.

O'Dubhain "Threshold Smoke"

These concotions are used to aid one in having an
Otherworldly experience. They are cast upon the flames
of a fire. Please note that some of the ingredients are
POISON! and that another one of them is considered
"illegal". The use of these herbs are indicated to aid
solitary meditations in the deep woods. Be aware that
they will induce "Dark Visions" and reveal your inner
fears. According to Monroe, the Druids required one to
master such fears to be in tune with Nature and to
achieve "Balance"..I recommend that none of them be
tried when unsupervised and I also recommend extreme
caution.

To make the incense:

Blend and compound the following plants:
Neckweede (Hemp)
Nightshade (Belladonna) (poison)
Ghostflower (Datura)
Keep in a dark (light free) box.

Burn as an incense to facilitate "threshold"
and "traveling" works.

O'Dubhain "The Spirit of the Mandrake"

This incense is used to attain a state of altered
consciousness for resolving one's inner fears and
becoming one with the Spirit of the Land and its
animal Nature. I caution anyone considering using
it to be aware that Mandrake is considered a
POISON! This herb is used during the Night of
the Wild Hunt that we discussed last week.

Toss dried Mandrake (poison) root upon a
bed of hot coals or embers and let the
smoke cause you to travel within the
darkness of the night. May apple, Peony;
Ginseng or Briony roots may be substituted
(also considered poisonous!).

O'Dubhain "The Song of Bluestar"

Another herb used to achieve altered states was the
Bluestar flower or the Blue Morning Glory. This plant
is considered poisonous! Do not eat or drink anything
made with it and handle it with care. Monroe suggests
drying the flowers and seeds to make an incense for
a rite of assumption or tapping into Powers. This might
also be called "mind expansion". (The same plants have
been used to create LSD in recent times, so I am not
surprised that they are used here). I'm not advocating
that anyone of you try this incense, but Monroe says the
Druids did. I'm not surprised.

O'Dubhain Here is the essence of the trip or rite of assumption:

"I will be as a Bluestar upon a field of Green, circling
upward towards a golden Sun."
.... translation by D.W.Nash

O'Dubhain The Druids believed all life was interrelated from the
lowest forms to the highest. This quote from the
ancient Welsh document, the Mathnawai, shows
their philosopy:

"I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as a plant and rose to an animal,
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I ever less dying?
Yet once more I shall die as a man,
to soar in the Blessed Realm;
but even from godhood
I must pass on...."

O'Dubhain One further quote from "The Gorchan of Maeldrew":

"Each atom an evolving life, each blade of grass
a potential soul."
nan !
O'Dubhain nan ga
nan i believe that LSD comes from a fungus , ergot, that
grows on rye....not from morning glories
nan ga
Kyle !
Freepowder !
O'Dubhain Well my reference indicates the Morning glories.
O'Dubhain Maybe some others here have supporting info?
O'Dubhain I'm calling on Kyle next for a comment
O'Dubhain ga
Kyle its my understanding that morning glories contain a
similair chemical which make up is essentially the same
as in lsd althought it contains a few less carbon and
a couple of more nitrogen... the make
Kyle up is still a halucinogenic....
Rhianna !
Kyle very small amount thought as compared to that of the
ergot..
Kyle go
Trailstalker !
O'Dubhain Thanks Kyle...great info!
cherokee !
O'Dubhain now FP ga
Freepowder My reference on hand shows ergot as source for LSD,
but I have seen morning glories as a source, can't find
it now<G><thumbing books>
Freepowder GA
O'Dubhain ok
O'Dubhain next up is Rhianna ga
Rhianna Just wanted to tell everyone goodnight - my bedtime is
fast approaching. It's been fun and interesting - I'll
"see" everyone next week! Thanks and Blessed Be!
O'Dubhain Blessed be! and Sla'n leat Rhianna!
nan g'night Rhianna
Freepowder Sla'n leat R!
Rivquah night Rhianna
O'Dubhain ok Trailstalker is on next ga
Trailstalker From some "long ago" research of mine... be careful
using ergot (not because of it's halucinogenic
properties) but because it is also an abortificant and
can (and will) cause miscarriages in pregnant women.
(Yes, I know - pregnant women shouldn't be doing
Trailstalker stuff anyway... however.
Trailstalker ga
O'Dubhain ok...thanks

O'Dubhain besides none of us are gonna use this stuff anyway?
right?
Freepowder hmmm..... <G>
O'Dubhain It's Cherokee's turn ga
nan riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight <g>
Rivquah uh huh,
Trailstalker who me... no way Jose'
O'Dubhain that's great!!!
cherokee ergot was original source for synthesis of lsd.
morning glories were later found to be a more powerful
source for sybthetic serotonin
cherokee i have to go too! have a rendezvous w/ my dremcatcher
speak for yourself od
cherokee i've already used most of it in my wild youth
O'Dubhain Good night cherokee!!!
O'Dubhain great dreams to you!<G>
Trailstalker night cherokee. Dream well.
Rivquah Good night cherokee!!
nan g'ngiht cherokee
cherokee hugs and kisses
Freepowder Sla'n leat C!
O'Dubhain one last point and then it's a free for all!<G>
Freepowder free?
Trailstalker well... reasonably inexpensive

O'Dubhain "The Draughts of Oblivion"

I give here the "fast" (meaning quick to make)
version of Celtic drinks and libations from the
"21 Lessons of Merlin" as well as the festivals
at which they are used:

May Mead for Beltaine

Add a half ounce of each of the following
to 1 gallon of your favorite white wines:
heather flowers, meodowsweet, woodruff
leaves. Let sit for about 6 hours. Filter
and chill before serving.

O'Dubhain Midsummer Ale

Add a half ounce of each of the following
to 1 gallon of your favorite red wines:
fresh oak leaves, chamomille, red rose
petals. Let sit for about 24 hours. Add 9
tablespoons of honey and 1 teaspoon of
vanilla. Filter and chill before serving.

Samhain Absinthe

Add a 2 teaspoons of each of the following
to 2 pints of your favoriteport wines:
wormwood, dried apple/mint leaves, dried
pumpkin blossoms. Let sit for about 1 week.
Filter through muslin and bottle. Garnish
with raisins and cloves before serving.

Midwinter Mulsa

Add a half ounce of each of the following
to 2 quarts of your favorite dry white
wines: crushed juniper berries, wintergreen,
Elder Flowers. let sit for about 6 hours.
Filter and chill before serving. Garnish
with a sprigg of green pine or hot with a
cinnamon stick

O'Dubhain Now these are drinks I can get excited about!
O'Dubhain I think we can all see that Druids used a
O'Dubhain variety of herbs in their work....from
O'Dubhain "visions" to partying.
nan ?
Trailstalker !
O'Dubhain nan ga
Freepowder ?
Trailstalker Before we break up for our "freeFor-all" I wanted to
share a couple of addresses.
1) Natural Labs in Sedona, AZ.
They make great herbal tinctures. Pure and powerful.
Trailstalker Sorry, I hit the go button too soon.
nan do you have any info on using wormwood? parts of plant,
preparation etc.....I have friends that have it
nan in their garden and want to know more about it.....ga
Freepowder !
O'Dubhain nan...I don't have it right here in front of me...
O'Dubhain but it makes a great liquor....so good
O'Dubhain it's banned.
Freepowder I do <G>
O'Dubhain I'll let FFreepowder take the floor to answer then
O'Dubhain get to TS!
O'Dubhain ga
Freepowder suffice to say, it is poisionous....
O'Dubhain of course!
Freepowder the liquor causes hallucinations, addiction and is
banned all over the world...
Freepowder it is used to treat bruises and strains....
Freepowder and I will type this up and post it in S15...ok, too
long for my lousy typing here <G>
Freepowder GA
Rivquah !
O'Dubhain Ok
O'Dubhain TS more addresses?
O'Dubhain ga
Trailstalker The man who runs it is very knowledgeable about herbs
and remedies. They can be reached at:
602-284-9551.
45 Castlerock Road, Suite 2,
Sedona, AZ 86336.
Trailstalker The other is Winter Sun Trading Company in Flagstaff, AZ.
It is run by Phyllis Hogan who is the ...
head herbalist in AZ. She's at:
602-774-2884.
18 E. Santa Fe,
Flagstaff, AZ 86001.
Trailstalker BTW the man's name is Don Hall. ga
O'Dubhain Ok
O'Dubhain Rivquah ga
Rivquah there is currently a movement among herbalists to have
many of these plants taken off the poisonous/banned lists.
ga
Freepowder ?
O'Dubhain Ok
O'Dubhain I've heard that It was in a committee headed by Kennedy ...
O'Dubhain don't have an update on the bill though.
O'Dubhain FP a question? ga
Freepowder is it possible, or as effective to take a shamanistic
journey w/o the drugs, in the true celtic style? how?
Freepowder GA
Trailstalker !
O'Dubhain The answer is yes you can go on a journey
O'Dubhain without using external drugs.
O'Dubhain Your mind is quite capable of producing the necessary
O'Dubhain drugs inside of you to "alter" your state.
O'Dubhain Drumming and meditation will enhance this effect.
O'Dubhain I have gone on journeys without drugs and with
O'Dubhain them. The experience seems the same to me.
O'Dubhain I'll come back to you in a minute
O'Dubhain but first I think TS will make a comment on this.
O'Dubhain ga TS
Trailstalker I was just going to say that drumming works "better"
than any drug I've ever experienced. And I'm more
effective when I'm not
Trailstalker "swacked" out of my mind (literally).
Trailstalker ga
O'Dubhain OK. I agree....but sometimes it works and
O'Dubhain sometimes it doesn't. I think that
O'Dubhain we must suit the tools to the job.
O'Dubhain I myself use few drugs for journeying.
O'Dubhain I prefer to use my mind and spirit.
O'Dubhain FP....questions?
O'Dubhain ga
Freepowder was drumming used by the celts for this purpose? or do
we know? GA
O'Dubhain Drumming was used by the Celts for this purpose
O'Dubhain as well as chanting and music.
O'Dubhain ga
Freepowder ok, GA
O'Dubhain <----seeing lots of files to be researched , created
O'Dubhain and uploaded!<G>
O'Dubhain I'll do an upload on Celtic Drumming!
Freepowder suffer rogue!
O'Dubhain hahahaha!
Trailstalker !yeah!
O'Dubhain Ok more questions?
O'Dubhain If not ...thanks for attending and let's
O'Dubhain away to the bar for Draughts!<G>
nan lol
O'Dubhain ahaha!
Freepowder cool!
Trailstalker hi ho silver....AWAY
O'Dubhain <---can't type or spell!
nan thanks again OD for another interesting evening
Freepowder well done again OD
O'Dubhain You're all welcome
O'Dubhain let's party!
Trailstalker can't spell? And your teaching wiccan? O'D!!! really!
Reepowder to the Boozer!
Trailstalker Hail the boozer!
nan that's why he uses so many gaelic words....we won't know
the difference <g>
O'Dubhain yep!
O'Dubhain found out!
Trailstalker heeheehee